"Listening to others, considering well what they say" (Part 3: Maingate Hotel)

[cityship]

The Maingate Hotel was pretty extravagant, and an entire section of it had been eked out for the crew's use during their stay. They had several suites, three communal areas, a conference room, their own kitchen with a chef on call if they required her.

They were all teleported from the main teleport pad of the hotel into the conference room, which was a large enough room to be able to hold a group their size and had plenty of chairs arranged in a circular pattern so they could mostly all face each other or whoever was in the middle of the room.

Everyone had to settle down so they were all able to talk, and the meeting itself would have to be carefully controlled so they wouldn't all talk over each other. But they were up for the task, right?

[ooc: Guardian Setup, General Mingling, Clone Checkup, Newbie Briefing, General Briefing, More Mingling, Back to the Meeting, and The Idea Guy sections are open. Backup characters introduced to the plot can join in the mingling subthreads if they want. The opening of new subthreads will be announced here and the ooc. Please read the linked OOC post for a plot timeline.]

Comments

[so-pregnable.livejournal.com]

"They were monitoring us. Yet another clear sign we can trust these guys to negotiate in good faith," snarked Kon where he sat, leaning back in his chair.

[level12headache]

"Monitoring is standard procedure for many races and is a prudent measure to assess your allies' strengths, weaknesses, and inclination to betray you. In this case their concerns are justified. Need I remind you, Kon that Stacy herself monitors us." Perfectly delivered in a level and uninterested tone.

[so-pregnable.livejournal.com]

"Yeah, and look at how much we can trust Stacy, too."

[hi_there_aliens]

Querl had a point. Stacy aside, they would have monitored the delegates if they'd come aboard. He got that Kon was upset, really, he did, but he also thought the man wasn't thinking clearly either.

"I don't think we have much of a choice when it comes to Stacy," Daniel said. "I mean, our options are Stacy or the vacuum of space." Out of the two of them, not dying in space was high on his list of things to avoid.

[so-pregnable.livejournal.com]

"Here, we have more options. We don't have to cut a deal with these people, or do it on their terms."

[hi_there_aliens]

Daniel nodded, although he didn't necessarily see it as black and white as Kon seemed to.

"I don't think so either. From what Williams is saying, the technology they offer isn't worth it." However, it wasn't like they could just close shop, pack up and leave. Maybe there would be other planets along, but what about the problems brewing here? They really should investigate. And even if there weren't any problems, they should still try to get to know the culture, the art. The apparently very long history of peace and prosperity, which Daniel had never seen before.

"But that still leaves the problem about what happens to the clones and what happens to the victims of the attacks if we leave now."

[encourage]

"And begs the question of how much of that problem is ours to shoulder." Sakura was doing her best to look impassive. It mostly worked.

"Taking down leaders in the hope that it'll quell the entire resistance or break their backs enough to gain the upper hand is pretty flawed. Especially when these people are fighting for freedom. What do they have to lose by continuing on even after their leaders are killed, if that happens? They're slaves already. If they're going to die, it may as well be on their terms, and I haven't heard anything about rehabilitation for people affected by the original Mother Brains uploading."

So she wondered what the Council's real plan could be. They had to know that as well as she did. "At the same time, how much faith can we have in them holding up their end of the bargain if we do take on the Council's mission? We're not seeing enough of their technology right now to know how it's so valuable to the GIA. Medical or biotechnological -- a clone army is resource demanding, but only short term."

[governorkang]

"The Galileean Council has to know that simply killing the leaders would make them martyrs, and make the rest of the clones fight back even more. The only way to completely rid themselves of this problem is to kill all of the 'affected' clones, which is too close to genocide for my liking. I've been on the other end of it," Kang muttered a curse in Nerakese.

[zouichi.livejournal.com]

"Perhaps what they're after is simply throwing the resistance into disarray, making it easier to sweep up all of the remnants," said Zouichi. "Although even that wouldn't solve the problem of inevitable subsequent rebellions. Though considering how sentient Kanner considered the clone castes to be, perhaps they're convinced simply purging any dissident clones will solve the underlying issues -- the manner in which the underclass is treated." More like farmed.

There was also the possibility they were after something else.

[so-pregnable.livejournal.com]

"Maybe the resistance has something right now that gives them an edge. Something particularly dangerous. Maybe something that could let them win or cause a lot of damage. Information, I don't know, plans to the Council's Death Star, something that means they need to be taken out right now. The Council could be confident they can handle things the rest of the time, but because of whatever edge they have, they want to make sure they get thoroughly wiped out and permanently lose their ace in the hole."

Superboy went on, "I've taken out a lot of illegal cloning operations. There were a few times I wound up in a situation where I was in a position to take down an entire illegal cloning facility-slash-secret-government project because I was in the right place at the right time or had something they wanted, like information or the clone they wanted to base their little clone army off of. They threw everything at me that they could to try to ice me or set me back, even to the point of framing me for kidnapping so the other heroes might help bring me in."

This situation being so personal to him was a problem, but his experience also meant he had some insight.

"What if the reason they want our help with the smackdown is because the resistance actually has something on them and they have to put a stop to it and put the clones back at square one before it's too late?"

[badassfreakingoverlord]

"Not like I don't believe for a second that none of you will listen to me just because I'm me," the book said rather cynically, "but can we not lose sight of the finish line? The Ohm, people. Social justice isn't our concern with the entire freaking cosmos at stake. I'm sticking to what I said. First, they have something we need to save our own asses down the line. Second, the people who sent us here to handle their problem control our ship. This was obviously a setup, but we might want to think twice before we piss them off."

[so-pregnable.livejournal.com]

"And you heard them--half the tech uses people like me for spare parts. What good is it then?"

[encourage]

"That we've seen so far. We haven't seen enough. We'll need more than an ethical dilemma to explain to the GIA why we couldn't make this happen. Do you think the assault of five members of our crew, where arguably they haven't been injured, counts as enough of a call-off?"

[carrieswar.livejournal.com]

"So you're saying we just sit back, shut up and go along with it just because we were set up by a bunch of people who jerk us around enough as it is? Who cares if we piss them off?!" Jr.'s eyes narrowed. "They don't really seem to care when we get pissed off, do they? And why should we do absolutely nothing just because of this 'greater mission' we're on? Dealing with it might be important, I know it's important. But I'm sure as hell not going to let myself become so narrow-minded that nothing else matters but a mission."

Especially because he was once so narrow-minded before. But that was because he only knew what he was told.

[governorkang]

Kang snorted. "This isn't just about social justice. Are we really going to let them disrespect us in such a way? Are we going to do all the GIA's dirty work for them, and just deal with being treated as their tools, thrown away when we're no longer useful? I went through enough of that on Krynn. I'm not about to let it happen again if I can help it."

[badassfreakingoverlord]

"So you got treated like a thing and now you're gonna kick over the table and leave?" Zetta said. "That's pretty demonly of you. But....

"Look. I don't think you're seeing the big picture here, so let me pose a question to you: if you're all so damn sure that making this planet better is the right thing to do, why are you trying to bring back the cosmos to begin with?"

Demons weren't like people. Mercurial and prone to living in the moment, they rarely showed any of the weight of their years. Also, Zetta was a book. But nevertheless, he drew himself up to his full height, such as it was, to encompass the room with his blank white gaze.

"I'm older than all of you put together, and I've seen a lot more of the cosmos and its countless different universes than any of you, and let me tell you, if this is bothering you then you're thin-skinned as hell. The cosmos is a pretty crappy place with a lot of stuff like this going on, and now everyone here's setting themselves up to play Dark Court on this society. So what... when we get to the end of our road and win, are you guys gonna insist on picking and choosing which worlds come back and which don't? You gonna write off every Netherworld because it doesn't meet your 'moral standards'? Wish every world with a setup like this one back into existence, but tell them if they don't clean up their act you'll destroy them again? Or can you justify bringing back a world of slavery and tyranny that was destroyed, but not leaving one you ran across alone just because 'it's there'? In short, speaking for the demons, devils, nasties, villains, and bad guys -- why the hell should we trust you to be objective about the cosmos if you can't be objective about one damn planet?

"Call me crazy, but if I was the GIA, I'd be asking myself that question right about now, and maybe I'd even set up a crew to see if they COULD make the decision that saving the cosmos is more important than their moral objections to some of the stuff that goes on in it. And if they couldn't make that decision, but some of the crew on their other ships could, which crew gets the job and which crew gets Prison Ship Stacy back in all her full, Punishment-dealing glory?"

[governorkang]

"You haven't been treated as a disposable thing your entire life because of the nature of your creation, Councilor Zetta. You have no right to tell us what we should and should not be offended by. And where did any of us say such a thing? Your argument is a slippery-slope, and you damn well know it," Kang pointed out, using his sons-of-bitches voice.

"There has to be a way to get our hands on some of this technology in such a way that we can make it clear to the Galileeans, and the GIA, that we will not tolerate being their pawns."

[not-edd.livejournal.com]

"I've had enough of all of your complaining!" Zedd snapped. "If you're all so intent on getting back at them, why don't you just steal the tech!?"

[futureisclear.livejournal.com]

"Wring as much as possible out of them at the negotiating table. It's clear they need our help or they wouldn't have asked for it in he first place. Our ultimate trump card is simply leaving without doing anything for them - so use it."

She flicked her wrist in a little gesture that might be read as dismissive.

"This planet's fate ultimately doesn't matter one whit to us. If their technology can be helpful - which it does not seem to be so far - then we take it, at as little cost to ourselves as possible. If that means stealing it? So be it. However, I do not think we should be entertaining any ideas of acting against the local government unless we are forced - in which case we should not hesitate to do what needs to be done."

She tapped her fingertips together for a moment.

"Pawns or not, we do not have much of a choice in the matter - for the moment our lives and existence is entirely dependent on the GIA, as Councillor Zetta has noted. We either play by their rules or we risk losing everything. Given the millions of pods aboard Stacy, they can probably afford to annihilate us, if they feel they need, and simply cycle through crews until they find one more amenable to following their agenda."

She spoke from experience at manipulating people and events. That's what she would have done.

"They have insulted us. They have injured us. So make them pay for it - but we cannot jeopardize ourselves, the mission or the ship for the sake of subjective morality. We should be focusing on achieving our objectives. IF we cannot? Then we leave once the ship returns and allow them to fall or stand on their own merits. Or possibly allow another GIA ship to intervene."

[hi_there_aliens]

Daniel blinked at Ildraniath. "Speak for yourself. We did actually just insult them by attacking Galilean citizens though. " He cared what happened here. They'd landed, been made aware that something was wrong, and it wasn't like they could turn the other cheek, take what they came here for and go. They'd be just as guilty if they were willfully ignorant. Even if she was right about the GIA wanted them to negotiate with the proverbial gun to the back, Daniel wasn't about to get bullied into cooperation just for his own sake.

Oh boy. This wasn't good. Kang and Zetta were going to come to blows any second now. It was already personal for Kang, and what wasn't helping matters was Zetta waving his age like it was a dick waving contest.

"Guys, come on. Let's just calm down," Daniel said. He thought about stepping between them, or at least, into the line of fire, but he got the feeling it wouldn't help. They'd just fight around him. Or in Kang's case, over his head.

"Kang, Zetta's right." Sort of. "Not every society we're going to run into is going to be a comfortable experience. However, we're meeting them on different terms here, and we supposedly have something they want. So we can start setting our own terms. We don't have to continue to be the victims in this negotiation if we approach this with a cool head. And no one is stealing anything." Daniel glared at Zedd. "Do you want to give them an excuse to imprison us? Or eject us from the planet early?"

Time to try and appeal to it with the basic facts. "At the moment, we can't up and leave anyway, so it's a moot point. So I don't see the harm in investigating until then." Daniel said. "Either way, we need a lot more information before we deal with the Galileans further."

[so-pregnable.livejournal.com]

"I don't know..." Kon said slowly. "If the big score is the tech in the first place, then...why can't we just steal it?"

[hi_there_aliens]

Daniel started at Kon for a moment as if he hadn't spoken perfect English.

"Because it's wrong. We have no right to and we aren't entitled to it, anymore than they were to treating delegates like livestock." Just a unsubtle reminder that Kon moments ago had been feeling pretty morally superior to the Galileans. It looked like it didn't matter if he could twist it to suit his own needs.

[badassfreakingoverlord]

"Calling something a slippery-slope argument is just another way to get out of being judged by your actions. The decisions you make now are the only way anyone can try to guess what your decisions'll be in the future. I'm saying the GIA is watching to see what our decision would be."

Ildrinaith got a bit of a sidelong glance. "You're not thinking. They didn't do a thing to us, by their view. As far as they're concerned, they pretty much just put 'PAID FOR' stickers on the home appliances we brought down from the ship. I swear if anybody gets pissed over me describing that -- I'm describing their perspective. And if we argue against that perspective, then we're pretty much telling them we're gonna turn on them."

[so-pregnable.livejournal.com]

"Look, it is wrong, and it isn't ours. If I got my way, we'd just leave and let them sort out their own problems without interfering in a world that isn't ours," Kon said to Daniel. "But if we absolutely have to go the pragmatic route, why don't we take the stuff that allows us to fulfill the mission objectives without contributing to any sort of disruption to Galilean society in either direction? Take the tech, leave the world and society alone? They can replace the tech and sort out their own problems without us having caused any damage in either direction--no helping the clones, no helping the government."

He looked like he was perfectly aware of the morality of what he was talking about.

"It's wrong, but helping the Galilean Council is wrong, and helping the resistance if they hurt civilians is wrong, too. If we're not just walking away from this like we should, the least wrong thing to do is take what we need and leave the society itself alone. This isn't our fight. We should either walk or yoink and walk."

[encourage]

Sakura pressed her lips into a thin line. "They've already gained something from us by our being here in the first place. It makes sense if we even that imbalance, whatever else we do."

She nodded to Daniel, at the end of his statement. "More information also means getting in contact with the Clone Liberation Front with the intent to listen to what they have to tell us, and not act on anyone's behalf other than our own until we need to."

She looked back to Kang. "I agree with Councilor Kang. There has to be a way to get some of the technology the GIA is desperate for without allowing this planet, or that organization, to believe we're nothing more than pawns. Pawns are disposable. We aren't. It undermines the point of any of us existing here, now, like we do if we're that disposable. If this is a test," she said, glancing over to Zetta for a moment. "Then it's even more of a shot in the dark on their part. Guessing at their intent is next to impossible when compared to the people we can at least talk to here on Galilee."

Not as uncomfortable with Conner's suggest as, perhaps, Daniel, she nodded again to him. "Two wrongs don't make a right. But our right doesn't make their wrong any better. Walking away is probably the best idea, maybe even the smartest, but I'm personally not hoping to do that empty handed. Not unless you can guarantee every last one of us isn't in their genetic databanks right now."